Overleg:9e Symfonie-syndroom

deze pagina gaat er vanuit dat het syndroom al bestond vlak nadat Beethoven zijn 9e af had. De Engelstalige en Franse pagina gaan uit van dat het syndroom pas benoemd werd nadat Mahler net verder kwam (zijn schetsen voor de 10e daargelaten). Vraag is: wat is juist? Ceescamel 2 jun 2007 13:46 (CEST)

De stelling op de Engelse pagina "This superstition is thought to have begun with Gustav Mahler" is volgens mij onjuist en wordt elders in het artikel ook tegengesproken. In de de introzin noemen ze de goede naam:

"The curse of the ninth is the superstition that any composer of symphonies, from Beethoven onwards, will die soon after writing his or her own Ninth Symphony."

Ook de Franse windt er geen doekjes om:

"La malédiction de la neuvième symphonie est la crainte superstitieuse qu'un compositeur, après Beethoven, mourra après avoir composé sa neuvième symphonie, ou une symphonie portant le numéro 9."

Zo achten zij Mahler ook slechts het 'beroemdste' voorbeeld: "Le plus célèbre exemple de superstition de ce type se trouve chez Gustav Mahler" etc.

Ook volgens Qi.com was het verschijnsel al bekend in de 19e eeuw:

"The curse has affected a number of noted composers. Gustav Mahler was so afraid of it that he did not call his ninth symphonic work a symphony, rather labeling it Das Lied von der Erde. He finished this work unscathed, only to die while working on his tenth.

The first really notable composer after Beethoven to complete more than nine symphonies was Dmitri Shostakovich, who lived decades after completing his ninth and wrote six more symphonies in that time. Less well known composers had broken the "curse" before him, however - the 19th century composer Joachim Raff, quite well known in his day, wrote eleven symphonies, for example."

Dat de vloek bij Beethoven begon, wordt dus nergens ontkent, maar bijvoorbeeld 92y.org noemt nog wel Schubert (stierf het jaar na Beethoven) en Dvorak als versterkende factoren van de mythe.

Volgens Futilitycloset.com schreef Arnold Schoenberg:

"It seems that the ninth is a limit. He who wants to go beyond it must pass away. It seems as if something might be imparted to us in the Tenth which we ought not yet to know, for which we are not ready. Those who have written a Ninth stood too close to the hereafter."

Op Mahlerfest.org lezen wij:

"Bruno Walter is no help in finding an answer to the Ninth Symphony conundrum. In his biography of Mahler, Walter confirms that Mahler hesitated to call Das Lied his Ninth because "for Beethoven and Bruckner, a Ninth was written finis. (Mahler) hesitated to challenge fate." That seems a clear victory for those who believe that Mahler feared number 9, except that Walter went on to write, "It may be that a superstitious shrinking from a Ninth prevented (Mahler) from talking about it. Yet, in that clear and powerful mind, I have never detected any trace of superstition. Nor could there have been anything of the sort here." A statement and a contradiction from the same writer!"

Ivory 2 jun 2007 16:22 (CEST)