Overleg:Arumer Zwarte Hoop

Artikel is gebaseerd op het Friestalige zowel als op het Engelstalige artikel en de daarbijgeschreven bronnen. Dr. Magnus 19 mrt 2010 16:14 (CET)

Waarom Arumer Zwarte Hoop en niet gewoon Zwarte Hoop? --Geoffrey 20 mrt 2010 19:04 (CET)

Omdat die naam ook op de Engelse wikipedia wordt gebruikt. Dat is omdat de "Zwarte Hoop" ook kan refereren aan Saksische en Duitse huurlingenlegers (landsknechten) die in de Nederlanden hebben rondgetrokken en geplunderd wanneer ze hier gelegerd zaten (ook wel Zwarte Hand geheten). Dit om verwarring te voorkomen. Arumer komt van Arum, het Friese plaatsje waar het werd opgericht. En waar enkele van de leiders vandaan kwamen. Dr. Magnus 20 mrt 2010 20:38 (CET)

Vertalen in't engels : "HOOP"

The English Wikipedia says "Arumer Black Heap" ... the meaning of "heap" in English is an unordered, physical, pile of objects (or possibly a large quantity (cf. "a pile of money").

Has there been a mis-translation ? I suspect the sense of "Hoop" in't nederlands would be more like "crowd" or "horde" or "gang" (cf. hoop mensen ?), but I have no knowledge of the sense of the original Frysk Swarte Heap.

Wikimensen, wat denken jullie ? Am I wrong ? (I may well be !) Jwikip (overleg) 22 jan 2020 21:55 (CET)

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Hi Jwikip, according to en:wikt:hoop#Middle_Dutch and en:wikt:Haufen#German, heap is the correct translation of hoop. See also de:Heerhaufen, en:wikt:Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/haupaz and heap in the WFT (Wurdboek fan de Fryske taal, in Dutch). Regards, Wutsje 23 jan 2020 05:56 (CET)

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: Beste @Wutsje, thank you for the references, which in fact give several meanings and therefore can be construed as supporting my point that heap may indeed have been mis-translated from Frysk in the past.

for example

• https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/haupaz gives several meanings including one that is similar to 'mine' in my comment above (see #2)

1. a heap, pile
2. a crowd, throng

• https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Haufen#German gives

1. heap, hive, pile
2. crowd, lot, group
3. dog feces

• https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heap#West_Frisian and several others [for example try //translate.google.com translation of your ref https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heerhaufen which gives similar indications (or at least non-contradictions) [and cf. flock, bunch], and [[1]] which has an interesting discussion (hope versus troop).

:: I still maintain that this translation should be reviewed.

• Who is/are the Frisian/Dutch language experts, and military history experts, in addition to yourself, who can tell us what the original Frisian sense of this word as used in the original expression by contemporary Frisians ? Jwikip (overleg) 28 jan 2020 23:11 (CET)

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Hi Jwikip, I would say the Wurdboek fan de Fryske taal is a rather authorative source, see heap: "Etymologie: Nederlands hoop, Duits Haufen, Engels heap", see meaning 3 in that headword. West Frisian hoop means English hope. You don't have to take my word for it, however. You might want to ask your question to the en:Fryske Akademy, see here. Regards, Wutsje 28 jan 2020 23:25 (CET)