Overleg:Maria Magdalena leest

The Magdalen Reading

Hi Ceoil, interesting for me to see you've used the pictures I took in the Calouste Gulbenkian Museum. The museum seems not to be aware. It will surely be the subject of a new article on the Dutch version. Best wishes for 2011! Thundercloud (talk) 18:42, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Ceoil, while translating the English version, I see that The National Gallery describes the figure to the left of Magdalen as St John the Baptist and the article here describes the figure as female and part of Catherine. The figure on the left side of the London panel doesn't wear a blue cloak. Thundercloud (talk) 06:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

They also said that Catherine is likely facing away from Mary which looking at the pieces makes no sence, and contradicts all other sources. I didn't rely on the NG so much here, but if I mis-read tell me. Ceoil (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

NG states that the figure to the left of Magdalen is John the Evangelist (not the Baptist as I said above) and so, to my opinion, the article has to be rewritten in that way. The phrase in the article The Stockholm drawing is a partial copy of the original work and omits large tracks. In the drawing the figure of John the Evangelist is to the far left, kneeling before the Virgin and child. His clothes reappear in The Magdalen Reading, and it is from this fact that it has been linked as part of the same work as the Lisbon fragment makes no sense because no Lisbon fragment shows any part of the clothing of John the Evangelist. The verticale structure behind the head of Catherine can be seen behind Joseph as well an if there are several windows in the original painting, she might be looking to the right. Is the Stockholm drawing somewhere on the internet or could you send me a copy? Thundercloud (talk) 07:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I have to give you my second opinion. Do not read what I said about the connection of the clothing of John the Evangelist and the Lisbon fragment, that is obviously correct. I think only the part about the figure to the left of Magdalen is wrong and should be John the Evangelist. Greetings Thundercloud (talk) 07:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Greetings too, I'm sure. I havn't found a version of the Swedish drawing in books or on the internet yet, and for a few other reason can we keep this source search to the talk where it is is collected and reference -able. Ceoil (talk) 07:15, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

More Greetings. The book Rogier Van der Weyden: Master of Passion by Lorne Campbell & Jan van der Stock, 2009, Davidsfonds/Leuven, illustrates the NG Magdalen, the Gulbenkian St Joseph (?), St Catherine (?), and the Stockholm drawing, "Virgin and Child with St John the Baptist, St John the Evangelist, and a Bishop Saint". This book is catalogue of exhibition Rogier van der Weyden, Master of Passion at Leuven M Museum, Sep-Dec 2009. In catalogue, NG Magdalen and Gulbenkian St Joseph are no. 56 (p.441) and identified as "Two Fragments from a Virgin and Child with Six Saints". Stockholm drawing is no. 57 (p.445), and commentary on drawing suggests that NG Magdalen and Gulbenkian Joseph "both represent the altarpiece's right-hand side – which is not worked out in the drawing – the Stockholm drawing and the Lisbon fragment provide an image of its left side". Thus the Stockholm drawing shows the whole of robe of St John the Evangelist, which appears on left side of NG Magdalen. And head of Gulbenkian Joseph fits onto body which is behind NG Magdalen. Catalogue states "The pen drawing is regarded as a copy after an altarpiece by Rogier van der Weyden with a seated Virgin and Child surrounded by a number of saints". In the Stockholm drawing, the figures are (left to right) Bishop, St John the Baptist, Virgin and Child, St John the Evangelist. There is a line between Bishop and St John the Baptist, and catalogue suggests that is where Gulbenkian Catherine (?) might have fitted. Mick gold (talk) 12:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Campbell's big NG catalogue has both the Stockholm drawing & a reconstruction drawing of the whole altarpiece, based on Ward (pp 398-99). I'll edit up from this but not today. Johnbod (talk) 13:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you all for your contributions. I've been writing a Dutch version of the article (where my name is Paul Hermans). I've tried to convince Ceoil that the person to the left of Magdalen is John the Evangelist but without success so far (see above) :-). If anyone would be able to take a picture of the drawing and send it to me, I would be much obliged (sorry for my poor English). I'll copy all your comments to the Dutch discussion page of the article. Lots of happiness in 2011! Thundercloud (talk) 15:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

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Groet.—InternetArchiveBot (Fouten melden) 7 sep 2017 18:34 (CEST)