Overleg gebruiker:Glossologist
Onderwerp toevoegenLaatste reactie: 7 jaar geleden door Paul B in het onderwerp Dnjepropetrovsk / Dnipro / Dnjepr (wat doen we met officiële plaatsnaamwijzigingen als er een gangbaar exoniem bestaat?)
Hallo Glossologist, en welkom op de Nederlandstalige Wikipedia!
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Welkom op wikipedia! Dr. Magnus 22 mrt 2010 15:25 (CET)
I've reverted your renaming. On the dutch wiki we usally choose for the current structure if there are multiple meanings for 1 word. Please discuss the question on Overleg:Daugavpils if you disagree. (English there is fine, at least prefered above computertranslations) Mvg, Bas (o) 30 mrt 2011 17:17 (CEST)
- I absolutely agree with you that such renames should be discussed beforehand. Therefore I'm restoring the status quo, as there has been no discussion about recent rename of Daugavpils to Daugavpils (stad). Plus, there is no ambiguity in the name of Daugavpils. See Overleg:Daugavpils (stad)#Name of the article. --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 17:19 (CEST)
- If there is no ambiguity there shouldn't be a "doorverwijspagina" but just different names. We'll see what comes out of the discussion on the talkpage and after that I'll repair it if things are wrong. See also my talk page, i would suggest to talk further on the talk of the article. Mvg, Bas (o) 30 mrt 2011 17:35 (CEST)
- On nl.wiki we are using xyz (gemeente) for all municipalities ie. Amsterdam (gemeente), or Kopenhagen (gemeente), that's our standard. For the municipality Daugavpils that makes: Daugavpils (gemeente). So the consensus to use this title follows from our other articles. For the district (Daugavpils (district)) the same things can be said. The city gets the suffix (stad) because nl.wiki prefers to use disambiguation that way, although not everybody may like it that way. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 17:57 (CEST)
- The administrative divisions of Latvia are very different from the one of Netherlands. You can't apply the same pattern to all the countries. And as I see you actually don't follow the same structure, e.g., Moskou and Oblast Moskou and not Moskou (stad) and Moskou (oblast), or Amsterdam and not Amsterdam (stad). And as I've already said "Daugavpils" alone without any prefixes or suffixes means the city only, there's no ambiguity in this name. --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 18:08 (CEST)
- To make it clear, I don't mind that you name the article about Daugavpils municipality Daugavpils (gemeente). I can deal with it, there isn't much difference between Daugavpils (gemeente) and Gemeente Daugavpils. What I strictly disagree with is renaming Daugavpils to Daugavpils (stad). --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 18:25 (CEST)
- Well Gleb, that specific case "Daugavpils (stad)" is the standard here to avoid a Amsterdamconstructie, it's also not my favorite thing. Recently I complained about Toronto getting that suffix. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 18:32 (CEST)
- Sorry, anything I understand in Dutch is because of my German and English knowledge and Google translator doesn't let me understand how this text is connected to this case. Would you be so kind and explain it in your words please? Btw, in the case of Toronto, there is indeed an ambiguity; but here we don't have one.--Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 18:40 (CEST)
- Sure, this is an example of an Amsterdamconstructie: Amsterdam. A reader will see this before the article starts Zie Amsterdam (doorverwijspagina) voor andere betekenissen van Amsterdam.. This construction is not our standard, the standard way is like this Dordrecht. The dutch city thus has the title "Dordrecht (Nederland)", that's the way it's done here, other wiki's would use the Amsterdamconstructie more often. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 18:51 (CEST)
- I think in the case of Daugavpils and Daugavpils municipality (and other Latvian cities and municipalities) there's a kind of misunderstanding here. In Wikipedia:Doorverwijspagina it's said that “Een doorverwijspagina in Wikipedia is een artikel waarin wordt doorverwezen naar verschillende betekenissen en gebruiksmogelijkheden van een term.” (Google translator: various meanings and uses of a word) The word Daugavpils has only one meaning – a city in Latvia. Daugavpils municipality and Daugavpils district are not other meanings of Daugavpils, they just contain the word Daugavpils. In fact, they shouldn't be even included in the disambiguation page, see en:Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Partial_title_matches. And I repeat once more, no-one saying or writing Daugavpils means Daugavpils municipality or Daugavpils district, he means the city of Daugavpils only. Plus, this city is not included in the municipality. They are separate administrative entities. --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 19:09 (CEST)
- Well, that't not the way we treat this in dutch. It has to do with the actual situation, but also with our language. We don't put the words disctrict and municipality here before the entities, we use suffixes. So, it's more a language thing than anything else, although I don't like our system too much. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 19:25 (CEST)
- What do you mean by “we use suffixes”? And this is not only about how people say, it's also about the official names. Officially there's no ambiguity as well, Daugavpils means the city of Daugavpils and nothing more. And I still can't understand why we have Moskou and Oblast Moskou, Kaliningrad and Oblast Kaliningrad and can't have just Daugavpils and not Daugavpils (stad), when there's in fact no ambiguity in this name itself. --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 19:32 (CEST)
- It should be also mentioned that Daugavpils district doesn't exist since the end of the administrative reform in 2009. If we look closer to this “disambiguation” page and see what is included there (the state's second largest city with 736 years of history, a former administrative entity which existed for 60 years until 2009 and an administrative entity created 2 years ago), it looks even more absurd. :( --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 19:48 (CEST)
- Gleb, I know this city is important within the context, sure. What I mean, we are adding a certain term in parentheses, even to the dominant meaning and create disambiguation pages like Dordrecht. It's not incorrect, if you consider our language and the consensus here, and to say it's absurd is a exaggeration. I agree with you we are not identifying the primary topic often enough, but that's all I would say. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 20:26 (CEST)
- My main point wasn't about whether it's a dominant meaning or not. It's about the actual absence of ambiguity. As I understand, in Dutch Daugavpils novads translates as Gemeente Daugavpils and Daugavpils, obviously, – as Daugavpils. Current state is the same as if we named the article about the Daugavpils University “Daugavpils (universiteit)” and place it into the disambiguation page. Please, read en:Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Partial_title_matches. And again, why are Moskou, Kaliningrad and other Russian cities (or Latvian cities like Jelgava and Jēkabpils) having their titles without any redundant specification in brackets and Daugavpils has to have one? --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 20:48 (CEST)
- Well, in our systeem of xyz (gemeente) and not gemeente xyz there is ambiguity. Oblast is a word we will hear in the news sometimes, but I agree, we could have done it in another way. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 21:16 (CEST)
- If there is an ambiguity in the word “Daugavpils” in Dutch, then probably it wouldn't present you some difficulties to provide some instances of Dutch-language texts, where “Daugavpils” is used in another meaning than the city of Daugavpils? --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 21:24 (CEST)
- The ambiguity exists because of the system we use Gleb, I will not explain it over and over. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 21:30 (CEST)
- Yes, I see that you use the system which is more common to your language and country, however you use it very inconsistently (see examples above) and I don't think it's correct to apply it to the realities of Latvia. --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 21:36 (CEST)
- It appears that you didn't answer my question. Can you provide some instances of Dutch-language texts, where “Daugavpils” is used in another meaning than the city of Daugavpils, thus showing that there's indeed an ambiguity in real world (outside Wikipedia)? --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 22:01 (CEST)
- It doesnt matter Gleb if these texts are there or not, the disambiguation is there, because of our disambiguation system and the xyz (gemeente) standards. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 22:50 (CEST)
- The ambiguity exists because of the system we use Gleb, I will not explain it over and over. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 21:30 (CEST)
- If there is an ambiguity in the word “Daugavpils” in Dutch, then probably it wouldn't present you some difficulties to provide some instances of Dutch-language texts, where “Daugavpils” is used in another meaning than the city of Daugavpils? --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 21:24 (CEST)
- Well, in our systeem of xyz (gemeente) and not gemeente xyz there is ambiguity. Oblast is a word we will hear in the news sometimes, but I agree, we could have done it in another way. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 21:16 (CEST)
- My main point wasn't about whether it's a dominant meaning or not. It's about the actual absence of ambiguity. As I understand, in Dutch Daugavpils novads translates as Gemeente Daugavpils and Daugavpils, obviously, – as Daugavpils. Current state is the same as if we named the article about the Daugavpils University “Daugavpils (universiteit)” and place it into the disambiguation page. Please, read en:Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Partial_title_matches. And again, why are Moskou, Kaliningrad and other Russian cities (or Latvian cities like Jelgava and Jēkabpils) having their titles without any redundant specification in brackets and Daugavpils has to have one? --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 20:48 (CEST)
- Gleb, I know this city is important within the context, sure. What I mean, we are adding a certain term in parentheses, even to the dominant meaning and create disambiguation pages like Dordrecht. It's not incorrect, if you consider our language and the consensus here, and to say it's absurd is a exaggeration. I agree with you we are not identifying the primary topic often enough, but that's all I would say. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 20:26 (CEST)
- It should be also mentioned that Daugavpils district doesn't exist since the end of the administrative reform in 2009. If we look closer to this “disambiguation” page and see what is included there (the state's second largest city with 736 years of history, a former administrative entity which existed for 60 years until 2009 and an administrative entity created 2 years ago), it looks even more absurd. :( --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 19:48 (CEST)
- What do you mean by “we use suffixes”? And this is not only about how people say, it's also about the official names. Officially there's no ambiguity as well, Daugavpils means the city of Daugavpils and nothing more. And I still can't understand why we have Moskou and Oblast Moskou, Kaliningrad and Oblast Kaliningrad and can't have just Daugavpils and not Daugavpils (stad), when there's in fact no ambiguity in this name itself. --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 19:32 (CEST)
- Well, that't not the way we treat this in dutch. It has to do with the actual situation, but also with our language. We don't put the words disctrict and municipality here before the entities, we use suffixes. So, it's more a language thing than anything else, although I don't like our system too much. Lεodb 30 mrt 2011 19:25 (CEST)
- I think in the case of Daugavpils and Daugavpils municipality (and other Latvian cities and municipalities) there's a kind of misunderstanding here. In Wikipedia:Doorverwijspagina it's said that “Een doorverwijspagina in Wikipedia is een artikel waarin wordt doorverwezen naar verschillende betekenissen en gebruiksmogelijkheden van een term.” (Google translator: various meanings and uses of a word) The word Daugavpils has only one meaning – a city in Latvia. Daugavpils municipality and Daugavpils district are not other meanings of Daugavpils, they just contain the word Daugavpils. In fact, they shouldn't be even included in the disambiguation page, see en:Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Partial_title_matches. And I repeat once more, no-one saying or writing Daugavpils means Daugavpils municipality or Daugavpils district, he means the city of Daugavpils only. Plus, this city is not included in the municipality. They are separate administrative entities. --Gleb Borisov (overleg) 30 mrt 2011 19:09 (CEST)
Dnjepropetrovsk / Dnipro / Dnjepr (wat doen we met officiële plaatsnaamwijzigingen als er een gangbaar exoniem bestaat?)[brontekst bewerken]
Beste Glossologist, omdat je actief bent geweest op het artikel dat nu Dnipro (stad) heet, wil ik je graag wijzen op een eventuele discussie daarover, zie dit kopje in het 'Geopgrafiecafé': Dnjepropetrovsk / Dnipro / Dnjepr (wat doen we met officiële plaatsnaamwijzigingen als er een gangbaar exoniem bestaat?). Groet, Paul B (overleg) 29 mei 2016 15:39 (CEST)
- In English: I'm not sure that the immediate change from Dnjepropetrosvsk to Dnipro was warranted, and since you have been active on that article recently, I'd like to at least give you the opportunity to participate in a (possible) discussion on that topic. But I think the dicussion will be in Dutch. Regards, Paul B (overleg) 29 mei 2016 15:39 (CEST)