Overleg:Lang zal hij leven
Onderwerp toevoegenLaatste reactie: 4 jaar geleden door Rp in het onderwerp Glory?
Glory?[brontekst bewerken]
(gekopieerd van Overleg gebruiker:Heavenlyblue)
It seems strange to say that an ordinary citizen should live in glory. Perhaps this began as a royal anthem?
Heavenlyblue (overleg) 25 nov 2019 17:42 (CET)
- Hi Heavenlyblue, just out of curiosity: what are you referring to? Regards, Wutsje 25 nov 2019 18:22 (CET)
- Sorry, I thought I was following a link to the talk page for "Lang zal hij leven". https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lang_zal_hij_leven This, however, appears to be my own talk page. Heavenlyblue (overleg) 1 dec 2019 06:49 (CET)
- Indeed it is. No problem. Regarding your question: why shouldn't an ordinary citizen live in glory? :-) Wutsje 1 dec 2019 17:00 (CET)
- In English I think the term 'glory' is usually reserved for deity, great leaders, and heroes, almost exclusively in a historical context. To apply it to an ordinary person, now living, would seem highly unusual, unless perhaps used mockingly. It may be that 'glory', in English, is not a perfect translation of the concept of 'gloria' as intended in Dutch. Or perhaps the Dutch usage suggests a kind or reflected glory, originating from the Nation and Monarch, but encompassing the people as well. Just wondering. I did find one usage in Dutch that appears mocking: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_de_gloria Another page seems to suggest unknown origins and a change in usage, at least in Sweden, with use as a birthday song coming perhaps centuries after the first known publication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja,_m%C3%A5_han_(hon)_leva Earlier usage, in the case of the Swedish version, as a drinking song is, to my mind, highly suggestive of a toast to a monarch. Who knows? Heavenlyblue (overleg) 2 dec 2019 08:48 (CET)
- In English I think the term 'glory' is usually reserved for deity, great leaders, and heroes, almost exclusively in a historical context. To apply it to an ordinary person, now living, would seem highly unusual, unless perhaps used mockingly. It may be that 'glory', in English, is not a perfect translation of the concept of 'gloria' as intended in Dutch. Or perhaps the Dutch usage suggests a kind or reflected glory, originating from the Nation and Monarch, but encompassing the people as well. Just wondering. I did find one usage in Dutch that appears mocking: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_de_gloria Another page seems to suggest unknown origins and a change in usage, at least in Sweden, with use as a birthday song coming perhaps centuries after the first known publication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja,_m%C3%A5_han_(hon)_leva Earlier usage, in the case of the Swedish version, as a drinking song is, to my mind, highly suggestive of a toast to a monarch. Who knows? Heavenlyblue (overleg) 2 dec 2019 08:48 (CET)
- Indeed it is. No problem. Regarding your question: why shouldn't an ordinary citizen live in glory? :-) Wutsje 1 dec 2019 17:00 (CET)
- Sorry, I thought I was following a link to the talk page for "Lang zal hij leven". https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lang_zal_hij_leven This, however, appears to be my own talk page. Heavenlyblue (overleg) 1 dec 2019 06:49 (CET)
(einde gekopieerd overleg)
- If there is anybody on this project who might shed some light on this, it is probably Matroos Vos. Wutsje 3 dec 2019 17:14 (CET)
- Hi Heavenlyblue and Wutsje, until the seventeenth century, according to Hans Beelen and Nicoline van der Sijs, only monarchs were celebrating their birthday, so at that time there were only 'royal' birthday songs. One of the first Dutch birthday songs meant for 'ordinary' people was written in 1667 by the poet Andries Pels, with the opening line Lodewyk is jaarig! Just like other early birthday songs, it was also a drinking song: Schenker zyt niet kaarig; 't Wyntje doet my deugd.
- The song we're talking about, 'Lang zal hij leven', probably stems from the German song 'Hoch soll er leben', which, in an earlier version, had the line Hoch soll er leben in Gloria, Gloria Victoria. 'Lang zal hij leven' was mentioned for the first time in august 1847, in a few Dutch newspapers, when it was sung for the politician Lambertus Dominicus Storm, who, for that matter, died twelve years later, during a fiery speech in parliament. In this song the Dutch word gloria (or glorie) may reflect the royal connotations of a birthday some centuries before, but I don't think that this word, nor the English word glory, is strictly reserved for kings, gods and the like. In Dutch you can for instance talk about Hollands glorie, meaning everything the Netherlands can be proud of, especially the ocean-going tugboats some hundred years ago. And it seems to me the Oxford Dictionary of English (ed. 2005) is endorsing the use of the English word glory in more ordinary settings too, giving the example sentence the train has been restored to all its former glory.
- Lang zal hij leven in de gloria is most of all meant as a wish, and I think a proper translation would be something like Long may he live, in a magnificent way. According to the latest version of the slightly obese Van Dale dictionary the phrase (helemaal) in de gloria zijn means in feeststemming, erg blij zijn, which could be translated as to be in a festive mood, to be very happy. In that sense the word gloria also reflects the joy of a birthday and a long, happy life. So, with all the best wishes, Matroos Vos (overleg) 4 dec 2019 05:12 (CET)
- Thank you for enlightening us on this subject, which I knew hardly anything about. Wutsje 4 dec 2019 15:21 (CET)
- Lang zal hij leven in de gloria is most of all meant as a wish, and I think a proper translation would be something like Long may he live, in a magnificent way. According to the latest version of the slightly obese Van Dale dictionary the phrase (helemaal) in de gloria zijn means in feeststemming, erg blij zijn, which could be translated as to be in a festive mood, to be very happy. In that sense the word gloria also reflects the joy of a birthday and a long, happy life. So, with all the best wishes, Matroos Vos (overleg) 4 dec 2019 05:12 (CET)
- I can't find any evidencethat Hoch soll er leben is older than Lang zal hij leven. It is a solemn, ritualized song, despite the usually informal delivery; glorie is a very solemn word, and gloria is not a Dutch word at all. Rp (overleg) 5 dec 2019 13:24 (CET)