Overleg gebruiker:Fränsmer

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Kukkie (overleg) 27 jan 2014 14:01 (CET)

Stop edit war please.

The image you replaced on Stadtlohn is according to stadtlohn.de not the coat of arms of the city, but a service seal for daily use, in the Netherlands the same as an logo. Use for third parties is not permitted says the website of Stadlohn. Please provide sources for your claim, dont editwar about it. Regards Arch overleg 26 apr 2014 17:46 (CEST)

Besides the question if it is a service seal or a coat of arms, your file is not the coat of arms of Stadtlohn. You uploaded a new version with mural crown so it is nearer to the version of 1909, shown af stadtlohn.de, but it is not same. So I'd say better the seal as a COA in a personal variation of the uploader. You uploaded so much vatiations at that file name, it seems you do not want to show the 100% correct version of the COA of Stadtlohn. Fränsmer (overleg) 26 apr 2014 18:50 (CEST)

Yes I completed it today, the correct version is also on NGW. Were is your proof that my version is not 100%? Wat is wrong about it? So I can made adjustments. Arch overleg 26 apr 2014 18:56 (CEST)

Fränsmer is right, the arms is no more used by the city ([look http://www.stadtlohn.de/pics/medien/1_1165490949/Hauptsatzung.pdf here]. You can see it on many pictures from Stadtlohn. Further, the arms are not according to heraldic rules - there are now 3 D disigns or shadows provided. Your disigns of COA look great, but sadly only for laymen and has nothing to do with scientific work. You well never find such designs in literature about heraldry. Sorry, that I must say it so directly.--Juergenk59 (overleg) 26 apr 2014 19:27 (CEST)

First of all: great and good news that you are back, Arch. We really missed you. Concerning the German heraldry in general, there are no shadows, no 3-D-effects and only very few basic colours allowed. Therefore I have to support Juergen about the facts he mentioned. I enjoy your Dutch and most of your historic heraldry, but as far as German coats of arms are concerned, I kindly ask you to respect the rules. Maxxl2 (overleg) 26 apr 2014 19:54 (CEST) BTW: Ralf Hartemink is fully aware the German heraldic rules.

Better a wrong or slightly incorrect CoA then a file that's not allowed according to the law: the seal is not allowed to be used by third party according to the site provided by Arch. Dqfn13 (overleg) 26 apr 2014 20:12 (CEST)

The file by Arch has a mural crown as seen in CoA of 1909. But Arch drawed a different escutcheon, 3D effects a gradient from light to darker grey. So it does not show the CoA of 1909 and is not 100%. Even the Version of Klemens Stadler, which is also upload at Commons would in my opinion better for the Stadtlohn article than a "look alike". My "guidline" is to show real existing CoAs. There are enough curious SVG CoAs at Commons (Lion of Hassia wrongly used for a town in Palatinate region, Lion of Bohemia for a German town without bohemian history etc.). I do not understand why Dqfn13 requestet deletion of DEU Stadtlohn COA.svg. I think it were better to discuss (even if e.g. I have my problems with English) and find a good solution for such cases instead of doing hastily things like that. Fränsmer (overleg) 26 apr 2014 21:22 (CEST)

Have you read this part:

Für den alltäglichen Gebrauch nutzt die Stadt ein vereinfachtes Wappen, das nur den Schild mit den Köpfen und Querbalken zeigt.

Es gibt auch eine Fassung, die dem Siegelabdruck entspricht.

Die Nutzung des Wappens, unabhängig von der Fassung, ist ausschließlich der Stadt Stadtlohn vorbehalten. Die Nutzung durch Dritte ist grundsätzlich nicht zulässig (§ 12 BGB). Für eine Ausnahmegenehmigung wenden Sie sich bitte an die Stadtverwaltung.

It clearly says: not to be used by third party, only with permission of the city. All things published at Wikipedia are to be used freely, which is not allowed according to the text given left of your file copied from commons deletion request Dqfn13 (overleg) 26 apr 2014 21:42 (CEST)

I read it. That is a standard "phrase". But all German coat of arms can be displayed here according to {{PD-Coa-Germany}}. That phrase by Stadtlohn says I am not allowed to write a letter or set it to headline or sell shirts with it without permission by city of Stadtlohn. Fränsmer (overleg) 26 apr 2014 21:52 (CEST)

TNX Maxxl2 for your kind words. I'll shall check about German heraldic rules ok? Never heard about such kind of rules. [:File:Imperial Coat of arms of Germany (1874).jpg] has "3d" effects or [:File:Middle_imperial_coat_of_arms_of_Germany.svg] with gradients. Also German Heraldry dont mention it. If its true I'll will made as soon a possible a flat example, not a problem at all. Fränsmer I understand your frustation about strange elements some user draw their "Coa's", I've the same feelings about that. Thats why I did drawn the Stadtlohn coat is authentic as possible, specially the heads. But in a 2014 style, yes with gradient and rieliëf. Like many other (!) German Coats of Arms on Wikipedia. I cannot imagine that any shieldform realy matters, how else can you explain different shieldforms as the way they exist? Is the "right" shieldform required in a official source? Please let me know. Arch overleg ed26 apr 2014 21:53 (CEST)

Fränsmer, your coat of arms isn't a coat of arms but a seal, or logo so you want. Otherwise the city wouldn't say no third party is allowed to use it. Also, all files published on Wikipedia should be free to use, also commercially, which the city does not allow. If the city does not allow commercial use the file is not allowed on Wikipedia and Commons. Dqfn13 (overleg) 26 apr 2014 22:03 (CEST)

Ik heb het gedaan. - I have altered Juergens rendition and eliminated the seal-like roundel behind the shield. Now we have a true shield according the genuine rules. I hope this will suffice. Maxxl2 (overleg) 26 apr 2014 22:11 (CEST)

@Arch: As an "extreme" example Bestand:DEU Neuleiningen COA.svg. I think the shieldform can be important. You show me the google results. Google shows us the seal, the version drawn by Klemens Stadler of the 1960es(?) and the version from Kaffee Haag albums of the first half of 20th century. Well, Stadler uses same shieldform for all Coat of arms in his books, as far as I know. Kaffee Haag uses also the CoAs in a standardized way, cause they used the CoAs for commercial use (hope I do not tell it wrong). I just think, what qualifies us to create files with totally new shieldforms? People will find them at Wikipedia and use them, cause they do not know it better, so the new shieldforms will spread inofficially. But why? It is just randomly cause one user had the time to draw a SVG and used shieldform he thought to look good. One user upload a file of my town's CoA. Wrong lion, wrong grapes... But cause it was on Wikipedia and google image search results it spread. So now I see it in private use although it is totally random, with a bohemian lion. So that user had some "power". That is strange in my opinion. Fränsmer (overleg) 26 apr 2014 22:16 (CEST)

I really understand your feelings, like I said before, I'm always try to made them as authentic as possible. In this case I've seen two different shieldforms on Stadtlohn.de, type E for the COA, type A on the seal. Its not a problem to change the shieldform in an A type, just say it :) Arch overleg 26 apr 2014 22:27 (CEST)

After having had a closer look into the various renditions, I would like to ask you to accept that your more artistical and detailed heads should be amalgated with the present Juergen's shield. Would that make a solution of the matter and a use recommended in the nl-wp aswell? Maxxl2 (overleg) 26 apr 2014 22:37 (CEST)

It should be a very nice solution, but I'm afraid the uploader doesn't agree with that :( Arch overleg 26 apr 2014 23:05 (CEST)

Welp - Haste makes waste. - finally he did. He agreed in eliminating the kind of seal plate background circle. I am an optimist by birth. Why not take another step and lay the foundation for a happy cooperation? I would be most grateful if that would start from here and now. Maxxl2 (overleg) 27 apr 2014 00:25 (CEST)

I see it, end well, all good ;) Keep the optimism high, I will do :) Regards Arch overleg 27 apr 2014 12:53 (CEST)