Wikipedia:De kroeg/Archief/20130728
Vertalers gezocht voor de gebruiksgids van de visuele tekstverwerker[bewerken | brontekst bewerken]
Hallo,
De lancering van de visuele tekstverwerker op de Nederlandstalige Wikipedia staat gepland voor aanstaande maandag, 22 juli, maar belangrijk vertaalwerk moet nog worden verricht. De gebruiksgids is nog maar half vertaald, en het is heel belangrijk dat deze vertaling voltooid wordt zodat de gemeenschap de gids kan toevoegen aan de snelcursus. Lees op lokalisatie en bezoek het VertaalCentrum voor meer informatie over hoe je kunt meehelpen. Neem alstublieft contact met mij op indien je vragen hebt. Hartelijk dank. Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 17 jul 2013 22:54 (CEST)
- Weer wat toegevoegd, ik twijfelde over een paar maar alle vertalingen moeten toch gecontroleerd worden. Hier trouwens een link direct naar de vertaalpagina. Larsnl Overleg 17 jul 2013 23:56 (CEST)
- Alle vertaling gedaan door anderen kunnen hier gecontroleerd worden, op deze manier worden alle vertaling nog een keer gecontroleerd en de gemaakte fouten eruit gefilterd. Larsnl Overleg 18 jul 2013 00:38 (CEST)
Dat rammelend geval moet nu ook hier de boel in de war komen gooien? The Banner Overleg 17 jul 2013 23:57 (CEST)
- @The Banner: wanneer er serieuze bezwaren zijn tegen die visuele tekstverwerwerker, lijkt het me dat we het daar prima met elkaar over kunnen hebben. Cynisch commentaar, dat is althans mijn beleving, is zelden een vruchtbare bodem voor overleg. Vriendelijke groet, Vinvlugt (overleg) 18 jul 2013 00:02 (CEST)
- Ik heb een poging gedaan met VE te werken op ENWP en zag allerlei vreemde dingen gebeuren. Misschien vind jij mijn commentaar cynisch, maar ik heb er geen enkele positieve ervaring mee. Ik heb wel een flink aantal bedrijfsongevallen van VE op kunnen ruimen. The Banner Overleg 18 jul 2013 00:17 (CEST)
- @The Banner, I see that you have made two edits on English with VisualEditor. One edit inserted <nowiki> tags because you typed in {{}} instead of using the link box so VisualEditor thought you wanted {{}} in the article (there is now a warning telling you not to do that if you try to use [[]] or {{}} in VisualEditor). The second edit was fine. What other problems have you had? Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 18 jul 2013 00:46 (CEST)
- Sorry Keegan, I see multiple times you trying to defend the visual editor, while the problems mentioned on Wikipedia:Visuele tekstverwerker/Feedback (some from 4 weeks ago) still aren't fixed. Solve the problems first before you continue your promotional campaign. Romaine (overleg) 18 jul 2013 00:52 (CEST)
- Romaine, you continually mention to me that problems are not being fixed, and the fact of the matter is that is incorrect. In the past four weeks the developers have fixed over 150 different bugs in addition to other upgrades to the software. You can read last week's report, and another such report will be coming after the next rollout. If you're truly curious you can read over the changelog in Bugzilla. Additionally, you aired your concerns with the developers directly who were able to discuss the issues that you personally had with VisualEditor. The software is quite functional and it is unfair to characterize it otherwise in order to get the community to reject it, offhand, without the data. Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 18 jul 2013 01:55 (CEST)
- I reported four weeks ago a series of bugs and linked all the relevant articles, and all these articles still have problems. I am sure the developer team is working very hard, but these bugs are still not solved and you want to enrol the visual editor already in a view days. That are the facts. I am not curious to all the texts you produce, I want to see the results in practice, because that is what the community has to deal with. The visual editor is broken on too many pages. You try to sell a broken product, we don't want a broken product, we want a finished product. We don't want to clean up the mess the visual editor produces like this and many many others. The English community is protesting very loudly here and still the developer team doesn't hear it. When does the developer team start to listen to the local communities? We want to see results, no stories. We don't want fairy tales, we want a good working piece of software and not the broken one we have to deal with now. It is unfair to enrol something which isn't ready to be used massively. Romaine (overleg) 18 jul 2013 03:40 (CEST)
- Romaine, you continually mention to me that problems are not being fixed, and the fact of the matter is that is incorrect. In the past four weeks the developers have fixed over 150 different bugs in addition to other upgrades to the software. You can read last week's report, and another such report will be coming after the next rollout. If you're truly curious you can read over the changelog in Bugzilla. Additionally, you aired your concerns with the developers directly who were able to discuss the issues that you personally had with VisualEditor. The software is quite functional and it is unfair to characterize it otherwise in order to get the community to reject it, offhand, without the data. Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 18 jul 2013 01:55 (CEST)
- Sorry Keegan, I see multiple times you trying to defend the visual editor, while the problems mentioned on Wikipedia:Visuele tekstverwerker/Feedback (some from 4 weeks ago) still aren't fixed. Solve the problems first before you continue your promotional campaign. Romaine (overleg) 18 jul 2013 00:52 (CEST)
- @The Banner, I see that you have made two edits on English with VisualEditor. One edit inserted <nowiki> tags because you typed in {{}} instead of using the link box so VisualEditor thought you wanted {{}} in the article (there is now a warning telling you not to do that if you try to use [[]] or {{}} in VisualEditor). The second edit was fine. What other problems have you had? Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 18 jul 2013 00:46 (CEST)
- Ik heb een poging gedaan met VE te werken op ENWP en zag allerlei vreemde dingen gebeuren. Misschien vind jij mijn commentaar cynisch, maar ik heb er geen enkele positieve ervaring mee. Ik heb wel een flink aantal bedrijfsongevallen van VE op kunnen ruimen. The Banner Overleg 18 jul 2013 00:17 (CEST)
- Ik deel de mening van The Banner, de visuele tekstverwerker zit vol bugs en problemen, als ze werkelijk doorgaan met dit tempo van uitrollen kunnen we op nl-wiki niets anders dat de visuele tekstverwerker verbergen voor iedereen om problemen te voorkomen. Romaine (overleg) 18 jul 2013 00:24 (CEST)
- Keegan, the fact that there were 150 bugs to be fixed still in the last weeks (and I believe there are still a lot of open bugs) supports the argument that the Visual editor is introduced to soon. Why take the time needed to improve it? Last week I've switched on the visual editor because I want to know how it works, and because I like to help with giving suggestions for improvements, I've done some 50 edits with the editor, and left some feedback on the feedback page. Most of the issues haven't been adressed yet, the visual editor can be a good thing but it needs time to get better. On this moment it only works a bit on plain text (inserting a links allready gets nasty) and editing table parameters. For the rest it still makes loads of mistakes, most of these mistakes are caused by wrong usage offcourse, but if even an experienced editor such as myself makes a mess of it sometimes with the vis-ed, what do we have to expect from relative new users, or users not so familiar with computers. See this diff (look at the 2 Unlimited link) for example. I could clean that mess myself, but if all new and anonymous users are prominently pointed to the visual editor we'll get loads of those messes, and a lot of fixing to do. Besides the simple stuff almost all of the more complicated functions, such as template and reference editing are non-intuitive. Adding a good reference still requires wikisyntax knowledge, it simply asks "what do you want to refer to?", I thought at first this was ment as a general description of my source e.g. "Wikipedia", but I had to write [http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkers article on Kikkers in the dutch Wikipedia] for a descent source. Why not take this wonderfull opportunity to give users the chance to fill in the more simple fields of the different source templates? I've addressed this issue along with some other issues on the feedback page, but there is not response yet. I understand that there is a lot of work to do and you try your best, but that brings me again to the conclusion that we need more time (months). If this thing is rushed throught (as it seems it's going to be) I would like to know our possibilities to remove it from the dutch wiki (by community vote). I think the effort is a good one, and this could be a good product to make editing easier, but on this moment I don't believe it's ready yet. Mvg, Bas (o) 18 jul 2013 11:43 (CEST)
- Thank you for sharing this, Bas. As I have told Romaine on IRC, I understand the Dutch Community's unease about the introduction of VisualEditor here as the software is now, and the reasons behind it. I have been an English Wikipedian for nearly ten years now, and I too felt the discomfort of introducing VisualEditor there. My job with the Wikimedia Foundation with this roll-out does not only involve informing the Dutch Community about the time tables, development, and other information about VisualEditor as it becomes available, but it also means informing the Wikimedia Foundation about how the community feels about what we are doing. On paper I work for Product development, but in reality I work for the Community Advocacy department for this very reason. Your feedback and opinions are important to me and the rest in the department, and the Dutch Community's concerns have been continually expressed on your behalf. It is unfortunate that you feel that these are not being listened to by news and updates that I have to bring back to the community; unfortunately we can only work with what engineering tells us they are going to do. As of right now the option available to the Dutch community to turn off the VisualEditor is to create a gadget to hide it from your personal preferences, as the English Wikipedia has created. If other options become available for you I will let you know immediately. Your (all of you) thoughts and concerns have been expressed, often in copy-paste word for word so that nothing is lost, and I will continue to work to find middle ground so that the community can have VisualEditor as a useful and productive tool. Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 18 jul 2013 20:41 (CEST)
- I understand that you do the best as possible given the limitations you've got (and I don't have any complains as to you personal, I would even compliment you as you seem to do everything pretty well). I hope you understand that the complains here are on the hole process. Currently there is a community survey/poll here. On this moment there are 20 persons in favor of "shutting down vis-ed on nl wiki until problems are solved/it works", there are 3 persons against this (of which 2 say they never want the vis-ed). So on this moment it seems like the dutch community does not want the vis-ed in the current state. A personal gadget opt-out (effectively only hiding it) won't cover the outcome of the survey/poll (if accepted). I'd hope you can express our opinion (or the very likely possibility of it) that we want a wikiwide opt-out (and personal opt-in). Which effectively means that we want the current testing phase until we're happy about the results of this testing. I hope that the opinion of the Dutch wiki community will be respected on this point. In your previous post you say that you're the messager in between (at least thats what I conclude from your post), could you explain to/tell me which department/group/person is taking the decision on the release date being next monday? Mvg, Bas (o) 18 jul 2013 23:21 (CEST)
- @Bas, I hope the opinions are respected as well. If not, I put myself forward with my free time and my volunteer account (this would be my account here, my "home" on en.wp) to watch your recent changes and help as I can to clean up VisualEditor "messes." I am very familiar with what they look like in diffs, and I am more than happy to help. If you are looking for who is the engineering team for VisualEditor, you can find the staff list in the template on this page. Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 19 jul 2013 18:12 (CEST)
- I understand that you do the best as possible given the limitations you've got (and I don't have any complains as to you personal, I would even compliment you as you seem to do everything pretty well). I hope you understand that the complains here are on the hole process. Currently there is a community survey/poll here. On this moment there are 20 persons in favor of "shutting down vis-ed on nl wiki until problems are solved/it works", there are 3 persons against this (of which 2 say they never want the vis-ed). So on this moment it seems like the dutch community does not want the vis-ed in the current state. A personal gadget opt-out (effectively only hiding it) won't cover the outcome of the survey/poll (if accepted). I'd hope you can express our opinion (or the very likely possibility of it) that we want a wikiwide opt-out (and personal opt-in). Which effectively means that we want the current testing phase until we're happy about the results of this testing. I hope that the opinion of the Dutch wiki community will be respected on this point. In your previous post you say that you're the messager in between (at least thats what I conclude from your post), could you explain to/tell me which department/group/person is taking the decision on the release date being next monday? Mvg, Bas (o) 18 jul 2013 23:21 (CEST)
- Thank you for sharing this, Bas. As I have told Romaine on IRC, I understand the Dutch Community's unease about the introduction of VisualEditor here as the software is now, and the reasons behind it. I have been an English Wikipedian for nearly ten years now, and I too felt the discomfort of introducing VisualEditor there. My job with the Wikimedia Foundation with this roll-out does not only involve informing the Dutch Community about the time tables, development, and other information about VisualEditor as it becomes available, but it also means informing the Wikimedia Foundation about how the community feels about what we are doing. On paper I work for Product development, but in reality I work for the Community Advocacy department for this very reason. Your feedback and opinions are important to me and the rest in the department, and the Dutch Community's concerns have been continually expressed on your behalf. It is unfortunate that you feel that these are not being listened to by news and updates that I have to bring back to the community; unfortunately we can only work with what engineering tells us they are going to do. As of right now the option available to the Dutch community to turn off the VisualEditor is to create a gadget to hide it from your personal preferences, as the English Wikipedia has created. If other options become available for you I will let you know immediately. Your (all of you) thoughts and concerns have been expressed, often in copy-paste word for word so that nothing is lost, and I will continue to work to find middle ground so that the community can have VisualEditor as a useful and productive tool. Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 18 jul 2013 20:41 (CEST)
- Keegan, the fact that there were 150 bugs to be fixed still in the last weeks (and I believe there are still a lot of open bugs) supports the argument that the Visual editor is introduced to soon. Why take the time needed to improve it? Last week I've switched on the visual editor because I want to know how it works, and because I like to help with giving suggestions for improvements, I've done some 50 edits with the editor, and left some feedback on the feedback page. Most of the issues haven't been adressed yet, the visual editor can be a good thing but it needs time to get better. On this moment it only works a bit on plain text (inserting a links allready gets nasty) and editing table parameters. For the rest it still makes loads of mistakes, most of these mistakes are caused by wrong usage offcourse, but if even an experienced editor such as myself makes a mess of it sometimes with the vis-ed, what do we have to expect from relative new users, or users not so familiar with computers. See this diff (look at the 2 Unlimited link) for example. I could clean that mess myself, but if all new and anonymous users are prominently pointed to the visual editor we'll get loads of those messes, and a lot of fixing to do. Besides the simple stuff almost all of the more complicated functions, such as template and reference editing are non-intuitive. Adding a good reference still requires wikisyntax knowledge, it simply asks "what do you want to refer to?", I thought at first this was ment as a general description of my source e.g. "Wikipedia", but I had to write [http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkers article on Kikkers in the dutch Wikipedia] for a descent source. Why not take this wonderfull opportunity to give users the chance to fill in the more simple fields of the different source templates? I've addressed this issue along with some other issues on the feedback page, but there is not response yet. I understand that there is a lot of work to do and you try your best, but that brings me again to the conclusion that we need more time (months). If this thing is rushed throught (as it seems it's going to be) I would like to know our possibilities to remove it from the dutch wiki (by community vote). I think the effort is a good one, and this could be a good product to make editing easier, but on this moment I don't believe it's ready yet. Mvg, Bas (o) 18 jul 2013 11:43 (CEST)
- @M{r|rs|s}. Keegan,
- Ik deel de mening van The Banner, de visuele tekstverwerker zit vol bugs en problemen, als ze werkelijk doorgaan met dit tempo van uitrollen kunnen we op nl-wiki niets anders dat de visuele tekstverwerker verbergen voor iedereen om problemen te voorkomen. Romaine (overleg) 18 jul 2013 00:24 (CEST)
- You introduced unasked (?) buggy software (all essential software contains bugs by definition since no human being is perfect) on English Wikipedia. They may be happy with it or not. Peobably some do, others don't. Why introducing it on the second largest Wikipedia as well, while there are so many colleague editors against. It's true we don't have to use it, but the main opposition comes from the fact that you want to add this "feature" before asking for consensus. A bureaucratic behavior many Dutch and others don't like. I'm one of them. Thank you for your attention and the time spent to read this, Klaas|Z4␟V: 19 jul 2013 12:42 (CEST)
- @ZeaForUs (Klass)
- I am a Mr. :) The roll-out timetable was set forward by engineering; introduction here is actually a week behind schedule. VisualEditor is set to be turned on for Dutch, French, German, Italian, Russian, Hebrew, Swedish, Japanese, and Spanish Wiipedias this coming week, and barring complications, all Wikipedias the week after that. We (the Community Liaisons/Community Advocates) have not had a part in the release schedule. I understand the desires of all communities to have a part in the decision-making process.
- As a P.S., I would like to thank the Dutch community for having the patience to talk about this with me in English. It is appreciated, not all language Wikipedias welcome this. Keegan (WMF) (overleg) 19 jul 2013 18:12 (CEST)
- The patience does not lie in you talking English, but lies in not been listened to us by WMF/developers itself but instead installing liaisons which try to sell a broken product with communication in one direction only. The communities expect as minimum that they get a product that doesn't cause problems the community needs to fix. Software should make the workload less in stead of enlarging it. There is WMF currently failing. It is like we get a car delivered, but due delays in the factory the doors and stearing wheel are missing, and we don't have the ability to put the car along the road to prevent any damage. The car being ready is for customers more important than delivery on time (a time set by the organisation, not the clients). In other organisations, the clients would have run away and the person who came up with that way of working was fired.
- The idea of having liaisons isn't bad, bad is that liaisons do not solve the core problems: WMF being worse in communication, for more than 6 years already, and that WMF perhaps tries to do something about it but still doesn't realize that there way of working is the cause of the worse communication. (WMF also doesn't realize enough that Europe has a different culture than North America.) Romaine (overleg) 20 jul 2013 06:39 (CEST)
Peiling[bewerken | brontekst bewerken]
In verband met aanhoudende problemen met de visuele tekstverwerker terwijl aanstaande maandag wel de geplande lancering gepland staat. Om problemen op nl-wiki te voorkomen is er een peiling opgezet met de vraag of er draagvlak is voor het tijdelijk uitschakelen, zie: Wikipedia:Opinielokaal/Tijdelijk uitschakelen visuele tekstverwerker. Romaine (overleg) 18 jul 2013 20:09 (CEST)
- Uitslag: Bijna 80% van de gebruikers is voor de stelling om bij problemen de visuele tekstverwerker weer opt-in te maken. Romaine (overleg) 22 jul 2013 19:28 (CEST)
Hoogtepunten Wikimedia juni 2013[bewerken | brontekst bewerken]
Dit zijn de hoogtepunten uit het Wikimedia Foundation-verslag en het technische verslag voor juni 2013, aangevuld met een selectie van andere belangrijke gebeurtenissen binnen de Wikimedia-beweging.
- Het Nederlandstalige overzicht staat vol (ver)taalfouten. Ik heb eergisteren geprobeerd zo veel mogelijk tekst op te knappen, maar alle onderdelen vanaf "Gegevens en trends" zijn nog niet nagekeken. Mocht iemand daar zin in hebben en/of eens willen oefenen met het opsporen van taal- en stijlfouten... Mathonius 22 jul 2013 14:29 (CEST)
dieptepunten[bewerken | brontekst bewerken]
Voorbereidingen voor de lancering van VisualEditor en Universal Language Selector Klaas|Z4␟V: 22 jul 2013 09:40 (CEST)
- Juist een hoogtepunt! Hier hebben velen lang naar uitgezien. Natuurlijk zijn er bezwaren, maar niet iedereen vindt die doorslaggevend. Josq (overleg) 22 jul 2013 09:51 (CEST)
- LOL, juist een absoluut dieptepunt, aangezien de mening van de gemeenschap stijf genegeerd gaat worden. Het wordt ons gewoon door de strot gestampt. The Banner Overleg 22 jul 2013 13:25 (CEST)
- De gemeenschap lijkt op dit punt dan ook meer op een verstokte DOS gebruiker die niet wil dat XP op de markt komt om het voor de rest van de wereld ook makkelijker te maken om met computers te werken. Niet dat ze zelf hun DOS systeem zouden moeten inleveren. Ik wil het niet dus ik wil de optie ook niet voor anderen. Natuurlijk komen niet alle bezwaren hier op neer, ik houd mij verre van generalisatie maar het aantal dat wel deze denkwijze lijkt te hanteren is ongemakkelijk groot helaas. We hebben Wikipedia altijd gebruikersvriendelijker willen maken en dit is een serieuze optie waarin geïnvesteerd is en toch op z'n minst een kans verdient. Let wel: 'de gemeenschap' is ontstaan op een 'speeltje' van ontwikkelaars, niet andersom. Mvg, Fontes 22 jul 2013 15:53 (CEST)
- Wat is dat tegenwoordig met die software? Als ik me aanmeld, kom ik terecht op een lege pagina Gebruikersbijdragen. Zonneschijn is een accountnaam die ik al vijf jaar niet meer gebruik. Kan mij iemand vertellen hoe ik dit kan omzeilen. Sonuwe (✉) 22 jul 2013 14:10 (CEST)
- Dat lijkt me niet de bedoeling Sonuwe. Ik denk dat er twee opties zijn: Of je gebruikt een gekke manier (link) om in te loggen|: welke link gebruik je? Ik gebruik bijvoorbeeld standaard een link naar mijn volglijst en sinds kort ga ik daardoor automatisch naar mijn volglijst, er is dus iets veranderd vrij recent. Of druk je gewoon op het knopje aanmelden, dan lijkt namelijk de tweede mogelijkheid van toepassing: Mogelijk heeft de recente wijziging van het inloggen een bug veroorzaakt (voor hernoemde accounts?) al dan niet afhankelijk van de browser. Zou je iets meer details kunnen geven Sonuwe want de kans is groot dat je een vrij specifieke bug hebt gevonden (ze hebben vast niet met hernoemde accounts getest). Mvg, Bas (o) 22 jul 2013 17:56 (CEST)
- Het probleem is inmiddels opgelost. Er is helemaal geen sprake van een bug. Ik had mijn gebruikerspagina nog als gebruiker "Zonneschijn" als link in mijn favorietenlijst staan en heb deze link nooit hernoemd naar "Sonuwe". Via deze link meldde ik mij steeds aan. Nu er na de aanmelding automatisch wordt doorgeschakeld manifesteerde het probleem zich pas. De link in mijn favorietenlijst is inmiddels gecorrigeerd en alles werkt weer perfect. In ieder geval dank aan Bas want met zijn antwoord heeft hij mij op weg geholpen om het probleem te verhelpen. Sonuwe (✉) 22 jul 2013 23:12 (CEST)
- Dat lijkt me niet de bedoeling Sonuwe. Ik denk dat er twee opties zijn: Of je gebruikt een gekke manier (link) om in te loggen|: welke link gebruik je? Ik gebruik bijvoorbeeld standaard een link naar mijn volglijst en sinds kort ga ik daardoor automatisch naar mijn volglijst, er is dus iets veranderd vrij recent. Of druk je gewoon op het knopje aanmelden, dan lijkt namelijk de tweede mogelijkheid van toepassing: Mogelijk heeft de recente wijziging van het inloggen een bug veroorzaakt (voor hernoemde accounts?) al dan niet afhankelijk van de browser. Zou je iets meer details kunnen geven Sonuwe want de kans is groot dat je een vrij specifieke bug hebt gevonden (ze hebben vast niet met hernoemde accounts getest). Mvg, Bas (o) 22 jul 2013 17:56 (CEST)
- LOL, juist een absoluut dieptepunt, aangezien de mening van de gemeenschap stijf genegeerd gaat worden. Het wordt ons gewoon door de strot gestampt. The Banner Overleg 22 jul 2013 13:25 (CEST)
Moderator gezocht[bewerken | brontekst bewerken]
Zie Wikipedia:Verzoekpagina voor moderatoren/Artikel verplaatsen#Dragpa Lingdrag. Wil een moderator dit zo snel mogelijk uitvoeren? Het verzoek staat inmiddels anderhalve dag open en alle links die ik goed gezet heb voor de hernoeming worden steeds weer fout teruggezet. Met vriendelijke groet, Gasthuis(overleg) 23 jul 2013 12:15 (CEST).
Uitgevoerd - Robotje (overleg) 23 jul 2013 14:44 (CEST)
Pywikipedia is migrating to git[bewerken | brontekst bewerken]
Hello, Sorry for English but It's very important for bot operators so I hope someone translates this. Pywikipedia is migrating to Git so after July 26, SVN checkouts won't be updated If you're using Pywikipedia you have to switch to git, otherwise you will use out-dated framework and your bot might not work properly. There is a manual for doing that and a blog post explaining about this change in non-technical language. If you have question feel free to ask in mw:Manual talk:Pywikipediabot/Gerrit, mailing list, or in the IRC channel. Best Amir (via Global message delivery). 23 jul 2013 15:35 (CEST)